Curse

PawnBoy · Apr 11, 2005, 02:41 PM // 14:41

There's one thing that I always liked about guildwars, and despised about other games, but am afraid is starting to happen. Let me see if I can put it into words. What I don't like is when a game/game community forcibly pushes a player into taking a specific job/sub job, and a specific skill set. Now, I'm pretty sure that guildwars is designed to be very flexible in what you can choose and have work out for you in all those ways... But lately I've seen people propose builds, and get nothing but negative feedback, all without a combat trial. The feedback comes in all areas, "you spread your attributes too thin", "you shouldn't have necro primary", "you skill set sucks, instead you should use this skill set". I hate how in FFXI parties essentially require that if you take a certain primary job, you take a specific sub job, otherwise they'll refuse to party with you. It's a kind of "buildism” that limits everyone’s freedom to try out new combo's that can even work out great. Are people going to start refusing to party with me because I'm a necro primary... or because I have warrior secondary? Already people are try to push you in certain directions, how far will it go, how long will it take before there's only skill set judged worthy of using?

Any thoughts.... ?

Because it scares me. I like to try new things ;-)

Silmor · Apr 11, 2005, 03:03 PM // 15:03

I believe things will improve as more people get to actually play on a regular basis. Right now someone can easily claim a build is 'bad', and no one can disprove their claim by trying it out in-game. There's always a brilliant few out there that will come across unconventional but very effective combinations and strategies, and I'm greatly looking forward to what they'll come up with.

Aside that, even if the game is unbalanced to the point where a few builds are just the 'best', you can always leave those cookie cutter builds to the most competitive players. The way you handle a build and the way your teamwork is set up are more important than which skills you take along, so even a "sub-optimal" build will win out in competent hands against an average player using an "optimized" build. Besides, if everyone uses the same few builds, it'll be easy to design a build to counter exactly those builds, thereby breaking the game open again.

butcherboy · Apr 11, 2005, 03:04 PM // 15:04

That is why GW will have lots and lots of guilds that form because people will get fed up with such nonsense and form guilds for people who want to play the game and have fun. The good thing about GW is the instance dungeon approach. You eliminate campers, gackers, and tyrants (mostly). You don't have to worry about some one sitting in an area and farming spawns for levels. You don't have to worry about doing a quest and getting killed by a higher up player who gets cheap jollies killing newbs. You don't have to worry about someone telling you what to play - you just go to another guild when that happens.

Basically, who cares what people think about your build. If you like it, it works, you have fun with it, then you have the best build for you. GW is a free country, live free, die with a high kill/death ratio, and build the way you want to build. We will fight gackers and campers in the trenches, on the seas, and.... oops, got carried away...

jdwoody · Apr 11, 2005, 03:09 PM // 15:09

I would look for a guild with like minded people. Me personally I'd much rather travel with someone with an odd build but a cool personality than an uber-character who doesn't talk to anyone else and is constantly running off by themselves.

HotSnack · Apr 11, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26

This is really a matter of how you're presenting your build.

If you posted a build and said something along the lines of "This is my rp/theme build, please give me suggestions as to make it better." Then that is fine, and no one can touch you if they're making comments such as "OMG that is teh sux!!!" You may get some people suggesting certain skills to build on the theme, but that is what you're asking for after all.

If you posted a build and said something along the lines of "This is my pvp build, help me to make it better so I can win more frequently." Then of course you will get people telling you to change this skill or whatever attribute as quite frankly, not all skills and attributes have equal value.

If you just posted a build with nothing but "...rate my build." Then what did you expect?

Dreamsmith · Apr 11, 2005, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by PawnBoy

Are people going to start refusing to party with me because I'm a necro primary... or because I have warrior secondary?

Yes. Make a necromancer primary and go stand around the Tombs. Then make a warrior primary and do the same. Count how many invite requests you get per minute. It's not a question of "how long", it's already happening.

Quote:

Already people are try to push you in certain directions, how far will it go, how long will it take before there's only skill set judged worthy of using?

Right about... now.

Quote:

Any thoughts.... ?

Ignore them and do what you like. You're going to enjoy a lifetime of suffering if you continue to be bothered by what other people think.

Find a group of people who aren't mindless zombies who simply think what everyone tells them to think, and play with them instead.

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." -- Mark Twain

Lamaros · Apr 11, 2005, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by PawnBoy

There's one thing that I always liked about guildwars, and despised about other games, but am afraid is starting to happen. Let me see if I can put it into words. What I don't like is when a game/game community forcibly pushes a player into taking a specific job/sub job, and a specific skill set. Now, I'm pretty sure that guildwars is designed to be very flexible in what you can choose and have work out for you in all those ways... But lately I've seen people propose builds, and get nothing but negative feedback, all without a combat trial. The feedback comes in all areas, "you spread your attributes too thin", "you shouldn't have necro primary", "you skill set sucks, instead you should use this skill set". I hate how in FFXI parties essentially require that if you take a certain primary job, you take a specific sub job, otherwise they'll refuse to party with you. It's a kind of "buildism” that limits everyone’s freedom to try out new combo's that can even work out great. Are people going to start refusing to party with me because I'm a necro primary... or because I have warrior secondary? Already people are try to push you in certain directions, how far will it go, how long will it take before there's only skill set judged worthy of using?

Any thoughts.... ?

Because it scares me. I like to try new things ;-)

You aren't going to find any trouble applying your philosophy to the PvE aspect of the game. You'll be able to try out whatever ideas you have in missions and quests without worrying about what other people think. As you play the game you will get to know people who feel similar to you, people who are willing to experiment and risk failure rather than following in the footsteps of others, and it wont be much of an issue.

As far as PvP goes you can probably break down the way people might play into various ways. Some will play for fun and some will play to compete. Along side this you will get the further breakdown (the one we mentioned above) between those who will try out new things all the time, constantly changing and testing, and those who listen to what everyone else has to say and copies them.

While the more creative people and groups will discuss builds and such with others, the main thing they're going to to is get out there and see how things work. Sure, a lot of things wont work and will have to be scrapped, but some of the things will work, and these people are the ones who will find out first.

If you want to try things out, try them out. No one is going to stop you. Just accept that some of the things you try out won't work. If the game was built in a way that any choice was a valid one it would break down; there are going to be some things that work better than others. But if you're the one out testing all the different things you want to play around with, chances are you're going to find one of those previously undiscovered things that does work at some time.

So the answer is basicly no. Don't worry about these things. Go out and do what you want to do, you'll find others who want to do it like that too. You might not manage to finish Mission X with no healers and no res... but then again you might, and you'll have fun either way if that's the way you want to play the game.

The way Arena.Net has be changing the game around so far I would be surprised to find the game bogged down in static game balance problems, so everything should be fine (if not always fair). Obviously if it does get bogged down in static balance problems then PvP will be troubled by some of the issues you raise.

Nash · Apr 11, 2005, 04:40 PM // 16:40

There relevant question here is: Do you want to win? If you answered yes, you need to make the most of your build. There are good build, and bad ones, and the bad ones cripple your chances.

As for other people not inviting you just because you're Necro primary, not your loss. They make broad generalizations and haven't understood the game. A Necro can be very good, or really awful, just as any other class.

Ensign · Apr 11, 2005, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Different people look to get different things out of the game, and that shapes not only their own characters but those they look to take as teammates.

Some people want to play unique builds that show off their creativity - some people want to win as quickly and efficiently as possible. Obviously there's going to be friction between the two groups, with one thinking the other is just a waste of space in the party and the other thinking their team is no fun.

So it's important to find people with a similar mindset and play with them. The obvious example of this is joining a guild with the same kind of values as you. There won't be that friction if everyone in your party just wants to mess around with pet builds. But even beyond that, it's important to seek out people in the staging areas who you'll get along with. As far as PvP goes, the arenas tend to be fairly friendly to oddball characters and experimentation, at least during the BWEs - on the other hand, the Tombs are a tournament, and if you're not playing a character that's going to help with that you're not going to be invited to play.

It's give and take. PvE is a good deal more forgiving of random or janky builds because it's easier, but even then there's a mission to be done with known objectives, and if you're not helping you should expect to get cut. There's room for creativity - hell, when I play in a PUG I consider it research - but if you're too caught up in being creative and not paying attention to being effective, well, just be prepared to be kicked out of groups.

Peace,
-CxE